PLAY-IN GAME Winner of 'Nova-'Cuse likely in NCAAs
posted by Pete @ LetsGoNova.com3/10/2008 12:38:00 AM
[UPDATE] Naysayers, take note. No less an authority than Jay Wright believes we are in a play-in game:
Villanova got what it wanted after a crippling 5-game losing streak one month ago: the chance to play itself into the NCAA tournament.
Now squarely on the bubble, Villanova faces a win-and-in scenario, barring a string of conference-tournament upsets or smoke-filled-room committee conspiracies.
With regular-season conference play complete, the Big East Tournament is now set, and Villanova is the #8 seed in the 12-team elimination bracket.
The Wildcats will face the #9 seed Syracuse to open the tournament. With seven teams from the Big East all but certain to be included in the NCAA tournament, Syracuse and Villanova will battle for the likely final spot on Wednesday.
A win in the 8/9 game should be enough for either team to receive an NCAA invitation, but it is not guaranteed. If you are more comfortable calling Wednesday's game an elimination game instead, feel free, because the loser of that game will almost certainly be headed to the NIT.
The Wildcats and the Orange have similar resumes for an at-large bid to the NCAA tournament. If the season ended today, Syracuse would probably get the nod due to its better RPI and strength-of-schedule numbers.
Villanova has a chance to make all that moot on Wednesday if the Wildcats can secure the victory. The winner of the game will most likely gain an at-large bid to the NCAAs, while the loser will probably have played itself into the NIT.
It's all on the line on Wednesday.
The game, scheduled for noon at Madison Square Garden, will air live nationwide on ESPN.
If Villanova is able to get past Syracuse on Wednesday, it will get a rematch with the #1 Georgetown Hoyas at noon on Thursday. Villanova lost its game at Georgetown last month on what was widely believed to be one of the worst referee calls in college basketball history.
The entire Big East Tournament schedule is reprinted below from the Big East Web site.
You may also predict Wednesday's final score in the comments section.
Now we're in an 8-9 game at noon and it's an awesome game. I think it's a play-in game for the NCAA Tournament.
Villanova got what it wanted after a crippling 5-game losing streak one month ago: the chance to play itself into the NCAA tournament.
Now squarely on the bubble, Villanova faces a win-and-in scenario, barring a string of conference-tournament upsets or smoke-filled-room committee conspiracies.
With regular-season conference play complete, the Big East Tournament is now set, and Villanova is the #8 seed in the 12-team elimination bracket.
The Wildcats will face the #9 seed Syracuse to open the tournament. With seven teams from the Big East all but certain to be included in the NCAA tournament, Syracuse and Villanova will battle for the likely final spot on Wednesday.
A win in the 8/9 game should be enough for either team to receive an NCAA invitation, but it is not guaranteed. If you are more comfortable calling Wednesday's game an elimination game instead, feel free, because the loser of that game will almost certainly be headed to the NIT.
The Wildcats and the Orange have similar resumes for an at-large bid to the NCAA tournament. If the season ended today, Syracuse would probably get the nod due to its better RPI and strength-of-schedule numbers.
Villanova has a chance to make all that moot on Wednesday if the Wildcats can secure the victory. The winner of the game will most likely gain an at-large bid to the NCAAs, while the loser will probably have played itself into the NIT.
It's all on the line on Wednesday.
The game, scheduled for noon at Madison Square Garden, will air live nationwide on ESPN.
If Villanova is able to get past Syracuse on Wednesday, it will get a rematch with the #1 Georgetown Hoyas at noon on Thursday. Villanova lost its game at Georgetown last month on what was widely believed to be one of the worst referee calls in college basketball history.
The entire Big East Tournament schedule is reprinted below from the Big East Web site.
You may also predict Wednesday's final score in the comments section.
42 Comments:
TO say this is a Play-and-In game is absolutely Ridiculous. I have said it all season: Given the depth of the Big East, a team will need 22 wins to be guaranteed a ticket to the big dance. Villanova may (and I say MAY) receive special consideration at 21, considering that were "robbed" twice this season. No way does the winner of this game "Automatically" advance.
That being said, I need to do something I have not done much all season, and that is give Jay Wright some credit. After the Louisville loss, this team had every reason to fall apart: A 17-11 record, players missing practice, ect. Many coaches would have lost complete control, and the wheels could have flown off this wagon. Jay Wright somehow straightened the ship, and the team did not completely quit on him. If I am going to pound on him when he loses control, I have to be consistent and give him credit when he regains it.
All I ask is that this team comes out fired up on Wednesday. They could not possibly have any more motivation for winning this first round Big East Tournament game.
no way the NCAA will give us a nod. They are out to get us.
how could this not be a win and in game? syracuse and ourselves are basically tied in our resumes, and theyre probably going to let one more big east team in. If we beat syracuse, they obviously wouldnt let them in. http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/bubblewatch?id=73
we have "work left to do" but beating syracuse is definitley the work that is being spoken of.
we've got to win this one. Man i'm nervous. I know we can do it because we beat them so easily when we were playing well at the beginning of the season, and of course we lost to them when we were in our slump. BUT we're out of that now and we're the better team.
i'd say villanova 87
scarycuse 75
Gill,
If more and more of these smaller conference regular season champions (St. Mary's) continue to lose, there is no way that this is a "Play-In" game.
The bubble did not shrink yesterday. VCU is OUT, mark my words. Illinois State may also have played its way out with a 30-point loss to Drake.
St. Mary's loss only shrinks the bubble if Gonzaga loses tonight. If the Zags win, the bubble actually may have gotten bigger due to Illinois State's collapse.
Ohio State did win, which means it is likely in, so we definitely need to win vs. the Cuse.
well said, pete! Winning may not guarantee a bid, but there's no way we'll get in without a w.
i've been thinking about the game and i'd like to change my prediction. i don't think it'll be that highscoring.
nove 69
cuse 63
I'm with Matadorm83, calling a bid with a win is a extremely overzealous. Our record, SOS, and RPI all say otherwise, when compared to several other bubble teams. We have very few quality wins, and the committee likes to bring teams in that can pull upsets.
We beat UConn a couple weeks ago, but that was by 2 points and was at home. We beat Pitt away, but they were without their team leader. Other than UConn, we couldn't hold our own against the big teams like ND (at our house), Pitt (the away game), Georgetown, Louisville, and Marquette (at the Wachovia Center). We got smoked by St. Joes in neutral territory, and had losses to Cincinatti, DePaul, and Rutgers!!!
We've been mentioned here and there, but nobody outside the Villanova bubble is saying we're the next team in. It's a miracle that we're being mentioned at all. There are so many teams out there on the border, and I think we're going to have to win three Big East Tourney games for even some consideration. A five game winning streak heading into the Tourney is solid, particularly if they come at the expense of Georgetown and UConn. The wins over So. Florida and Providence do nothing for us, unless they're in combination with these other wins. Anything less than that, and we're definitely out. I'm of the opinion that we have to win the whole thing to make the Tourney, because we were so poor this season. We shot crappy fg %s and played awful defense in most of our wins this season, not to mention our losses.
I love this team to death, but right now, we are completely undeserving. To say that the NCAA is against us is a ridiculous statement. They've not shown any signs of being against us, and we were given bids the last three years (and last year's team could have justifiably been left out).
My prediction:
Nova 79
Cuse 77
Pete, I love you man, but "one of the worst calls in NCAA history"? I don't think you've given the NCAA referees enough credit. They've made so many worse calls, with much more at stake. It was certainly a bad call, but it won't be remembered in history. The A-Ray call in the UNC game carries much more weight, though I doubt it will be remembered in the years to come outside Villanova Alumnus events.
Nova has just a many top 100 wins as any team in the the big ten. That has to be sume what of a measuring stick.
Time to start rooting for Gonzaga and Davidson boys!!!!
Also, let's hope some of these other bubble teams lose.
We're in the last 8 out, so we need to start doing some leapfrogging and hope for a lot of breaks. None of these 14-18 teams can win their tourneys.... heartbreakers!
-imisskylelowry
A win over Syracuse will move us up the the "should be in" category, and a win over Georgetown will make us a lock. I do think that Syracuse deserves to be in even if and when they lose to nova.
Sorry,
Nova 73
Cuse 70
Bpeach,
Several national sportswriters called the call one of the worst they had ever seen in any sport -- See King Kaufman of Salon and the linked post from the Washington Post... so I think it's safe to say it was called one of the worst in NCAA history.
As for needing THREE wins to get into the NCAAs? I'm sorry, but that is nuts. There is no credible "bracketologist" who says the 'Cats have to do more than beat GT. Many bracket makers have the 'Cats in with a win over Cuse, and some have us in right now! Regardless, a win over #1 GT (2-1 in BET) would place the 'Cats in the absolute, 100% lock category.
Looks like the Zags might lose... that would be a nightmare for us.
A case could be made that VCU, St. Mary's, Illinois State, and S. Alabama could all be out.
I think of those 4, Nova has a better resume than all but S. Alabama.
Keeping the fingers crossed for a bid!
Nova 72
Cuse 64
NOVA NATION BACK ON TOP!!!
after a whole season of second guessing and freshmen nonsense, tourney time is finally back!
Drummond, Cunningham, Anderson, Reynolds, Fisher.
Thats your team.
Now of course, Jay Wright may have trapped himself by recruiting TOO MUCH talent if thats possible because we could make a line change:
Pena, Clark, Stokes, Redding, Grant.
and not one person here could honestly say which team would win. probably the first team because Jay Wright has given them all the playing time and they know how to play together and run the plays.
BUT THATS WAY OVER! tourney time is here and its time for NOVA NATION to rejoice and back their team. Ups and downs are what made up a tough season to watch but now thats all said and done, its time for NOVA NATION to step up and show what they got and start imposing our will on any team that gets in our path.
---------------------------
Keys to Victory:
1. Drummond MUST stay out of foul trouble. we need ya on the court big man, especially against Hibbart.
2.Pena hard nosed play off the bench. Get tough Pena, you're from Brooklyn, get tough. It's your court, these wimps are just honored to be playin on it.
3. Threes from Stokes off the bench. Come in and light it up frosh. We'll give you the ball, just keep knockin 'em down.
4. And the fourth is the most obvious; leadership play out of Scottie the body Reynolds and following role play out of Fisher to ball handle well and feed the beasts.
and that leads us to:
Noon at the Garden on Wednesday. Lets kick it off by getting the orange stain out of the garden and filling it with Nova Blue.
Next stop: revenge on G-Town. see you all on wednesday
if we beat syracuse and lose to georgetown there is no way in the world we are in... we are clearly out right now and beating syracuse is not going to make us jump teams ahead of us.
we have exactly 0 good road or neutral site wins... i don't think you undertsand how important that is. our only good wins are uconn, pitt, and wvu... all at home, with bad losses to st. joes, rutgers and depaul- that smells like nit.
we probably need 3 wins but 2 should give us a good chance. 1 win we have no shot- quit dreaming in nova wonderland.
It was one of that week's sensational stories, but I guarantee those sportswriters you mentioned will forget all about it in the next 5 years. Whenever a call like that goes down, people always say it's one of the worst calls they've ever seen because that's the natural gut reaction, and the human memory is limited. It was not a big time game, and I think we all know this isn't our year to win it all (the next 2 years should be amazing!), so that call while painful, will be dropped from the collective non-Villanova faithful conscience in the next few years.
With that said, thank you Pete for your hard work on this website again this season. I know you spend a lot of time writing articles for this site, and I want you to know it's appreciated. While we don't always agree, I respect your opinion, and love your writing. I'm constantly telling our old Caughlin buddies (Harry Metzinger and Ted Waldron -who you called Captain Jimmy) to check it out. Hopefully, you'll have a few more weeks worth of Nova games to write about.
Todd
Saying "we probably need three wins" removes any credibility you may have had insisting we need more than one.
Here are the odds I would give, assuming that things do not go absolutely crazy in the remaining conf. tourns:
0 wins: less than 1 percent chance
1 win: 80 percent chance
2 wins: 99.5 percent chance
3 wins: 99.9 percent chance
4 wins: auto bid
Thanks Brian
Also, Todd,
You are forgetting the road win at Syracuse. Plus, there is no way that @SJU is bad loss. SJU is a legitimate bubble team. Bottom line is we have good wins vs. Cuse, Pitt, WVU, and Uconn. That bodes well comparing resumes against other teams who have 0 or 1 win against other tournament teams. Now, the committee can't very well give us the 9th BE spot with a loss to Cuse, but with a win against Cuse there is really no denying Villanova a bid barring some really messed up results in the remaining conference tournaments.
80 percent chance if we only win one game???
i don't even want to respond to that, you are out of your mind.
This is an amusing thread, with almost every one either unduly optimistic or unduly pessimistic. On the one hand, even if there are few if any more bubble shrinking upsets, it's hard to see VU getting a bid with only a win over Syracuse.
On the other hand, unless there are a HUGE number of such upsets, two wins should do it, considering that one of those wins will be a tournament win against the 9th ranked team in the nation.
the next 2 years should be amazing!
I hope. I wouldn't be too sure. While this is a deep and talented Nova squad, it lacks IMO the kind of top of the line talent that is needed for a deep tourney run - even next year. Reynolds failed to take a step forward this year, Fisher did not look like the elite player that Nova thought he might be, nor did Stokes at a slightly lower level. They should be better next year, but the top line talent of this current group can't compare to, say, the 2004-2005 and 2005-2006 squads.
They will be a solid tourney team next year, but most likely a sweet 16/elite 8 type team at best.
As for 2 years from now ... well, a lot can happen in two years. If Reynolds plays 4 years, if the current freshmen develop, if Evans comes to Nova and stays two years ... maybe. But I can just as easily see a scenario where Reynolds leaves along with the current juniors when they graduate, Evans doesn't come to Nova, and a Fisher led squad struggles to make the NCAA tournament.
And regarding the two years from now scenario, under any set of assumptions, size is going to be an issue. Aside from any 2009-2010 incoming Freshmen, their front line in 2009-2010 is going to be ... Drummond, Pena, and ... that's it. That is going to be a problem.
Yea Anonymous, I truly believe next year's more our year. The following year is a question mark, as it is possible that some of them will bolt to the NBA. I like next year for these reasons:
-Scottie is still a sophomore, and most players mature most going into their junior year (my opinion). Clearly, his biggest issues are shot selection and defense.He needs to smarten up over the summer.
-Dante is smart, and a workhorse. He's a great leader for this team, and I'm hoping his game will grow a little more going into his senior year.
-Dwayne Anderson has made huge strides this year, and we still have one more year with him. I love his athleticism, his 3pt shot, and his D.
-Casiem Drummond, when healthy has been a beast of a rebounder, a solid defender, and showed some offensive prowness. Hopefully the off season will be good to his body. I'd hate to see another JFrasier sequel(?).
-Stokes and Pena have improved dramatically from the beginning of the season, giving us some interior defense, rebounding, and mid-range/3 pt shooting.
-Fisher and Grant were freshmen this year, and they both showed signs of brilliance. Hopefully, they'll grow up quick over the summer.
You have to remember, many players come in expecting to stay a year or two, but most most end up having a bigger learning curve than they expected. The Foye/Sumpter/Ray/Frasier class did not grow into their shoes until their junior year, and I'm sure they didn't expect to stay 4 years with their talent. We of course want to see results now. I'm not anticipating this team making it into the Tourney this year, but if they do, it will be great for experience. We have a fairly deep bench, and it's only going to be to our advantage as these players develop. Over the summer, I hope Jay will focus more on passing, shot selection, and zone defense- these are issues every young team struggles with.
bpeach01,
That's certainly the scenario we have to hope for. And, yes, it could happen. I suppose my biggest question is this - assume Reynolds takes a big step forward: who else steps forward as not just a solid piece of the puzzle (they potentially have plenty of those) but as a star? Final four teams (and really that's what we are hoping for, isn't it?), fluke teams aside, tend to have multiple NBA caliber players (or maybe one player of the year type player). Who else on Nova's roster will step up tot hat level?
It could be Fisher, or, if Evans comes here, it could be him. But relying upon underclassmen to take you to the final four is dicey. And none of the other players who will be upperclassmen next year are likely to be anything more than solid role players.
Pete - Will there be a game preview for tomorrow's matchup? Those are usually the best analysis available anywhere as the major media outlets have given Villanova only token coverage this year.
Nova 78
Syracuse 73
Pete - Will there be a game preview for tomorrow's matchup? Those are usually the best analysis available anywhere as the major media outlets have given Villanova only token coverage this year.
Nova 78
Syracuse 73
how can anyone say that the georgetown game was not an important one? had we won that game our resume and rpi would be ridiculously better, and we'd be almost deffinitley in with a win over syracuse. That was an important game, and an important foul.
Ja --
I'll ask Novafan09 if he is doing his usual bit... if not, I'll throw something up later this evening.
I've read pretty much every piece of literature out there as far as our shot and the bubble in general. One win is definitely not safe especially not 80%. Two wins and we're considered, maybe with that I would say an 80% chance. I'm hoping we can pull it together and at least beat cuse but I'm not sure if that will even happen, its practically a home game for them anyway.
It seems obvious that the team should be motivated as is, but seeing as the way they played against our biggest rival (sju) at one of the most storied arenas, with the outright big 5 championship on the line i'm not too sure they can come out as hot as we want. obviously this game has bigger meaning but the team needs to show some intangibles that it hasn't all year.
OH COME ON! Now because JAY WRIGHT says it's a play-in game it must be so? What the flying fig would you EXPECT him to say! He is a BIG EASt coach, and that is exactly what ANY Big East coach would say.
Give me a freaking break!
im feeling stokes off the bench and going for 21 pts and reynolds steps it up with 19
nova 69
cuse 64
I love how you don't beleive anything Jay says all year an all of a sudden he says something you agree with and you quote him on it... especially because that's the most predictable quote ever... did you think he was gonna say, "well we will still have work to do if we beat syracuse.?" that would be some good ammo for the selection commitee
matadorn, considering that boeheim would not say it was a play in game, it does not look as if it is "what any big east coach would say."
In any event, Jay and I agree on this one. Win and in.
very bold statement saying that this is a play-in game, does not help that the zags lost last night...syracuse has a slight nudge over us right now, but if we win tomorrow, i like our chances against g-town....we match up well with them and we have a lot more to play for then them....goo catsssssss
no prediction, just giving it to the big guy upstairs to help us get through this game.
lets go nova!
i hate that we have to play syracuse. they are an extremely talented, passionate team with very athletic and skilled players. we won in the carrier dome only b/c we got donte into foul trouble. if he plays his usual minutes, there's no one on our team talented enough to contain him. they scorched us last time we played them in philly and much of the same will occur once again in msg. it sucks but that's what my gut feeling is. hope i'm wrong...
"how can anyone say that the georgetown game was not an important one? had we won that game our resume and rpi would be ridiculously better, and we'd be almost deffinitley in with a win over syracuse. That was an important game, and an important foul."
Yes it was important, to us, as Nova fans. However to say that it will be remembered in history as one of the worst calls ever, is simply overboard. If we don't make it into the Tourney, I truly don't believe it will be because of that one loss. Between our SOS, our loss column number, a five game losing streak which included some of the worst teams in the Big East, narrow margins of victory in our big wins, and our inability to beat most of the big teams we played (home or away), I think there's plenty of just reasons to leave us on the outside looking in this year. Do I want that? Hell No! But I certainly won't be surprised if it does happen, and I won't cry about the Georgetown call.
If that call happened against Georgetown in the Tournament with the 2005-2006 squad (who had a good chance of winning it all), I would be livid. The reality is though that this year's team has a 0.008 % chance of winning it all, and that loss will not be the deciding factor for our exclusion from the field if it happens. I say again, we need 3 wins in the BET to get serious consideration. If we didn't get an automatic bid by winning the Tourney, we'd still need 4 wins to make it a done deal. There are simply too many teams in front of us with better resumes. Examples you ask?
These teams are ahead of us on the bubble in this order or something close to it.
-Miami: 21-9 (8-8)/RPI 26/SOS 30
Big wins: Clemson by 3, Duke by 1
Good losses: N/A
Bad losses: UNC by 16,at Duke by 15
*Their RPI and SOS are better. Their record is not great, but is better than ours. Their two bad losses came at the hands of UNC and Duke.
-Kansas State: 19-10 (10-6)/RPI 44/SOS 23
Big wins: Texas AM by 21! Kansas by 9
Good losses: Oregon by 3
Bad losses: at Xavier by 26
*They have one bad loss which was an away game much earlier in the season. They lost 4 games in a row at the end of the season (2 against ranked teams), but won their last two. Better record, RPI, and SOS, and less bad losses. They're deserving of a bid.
-Baylor: 21-9 (9-7)/RPI 31/SOS 28
Big wins: Notre Dame by 4, at Texas A&M by 6, K-State by 6
Good Losses: Washington St. by 3, Texas by 5, at Oklahoma by 1
Bad Losses:N/A
*Due to their record, and a so-so 2nd half of the season, Baylor is on the bubble. Their resume however is more solid than ours with no bad losses.
-West Virginia (they're not a lock):21-9 (11-7)/ RPI 37/ SOS 57/ Big wins: Marquette at home, Cuse at home, Pitt at home.
Good Losses: Tennessee by 2, Georgetown by 1, at Pitt by 1.
Bad losses:Cincinatti by 23
*Better RPI, SOS. Other than Cincy no bad losses. Had trouble beating big teams, but lost big ones by very narrow margins.
-Syracuse 19-12 (9-9)/RPI 46/SOS 7
Big wins: St. Joes by 3, at Villanova by 14, Georgetown by 7, Marquette by 15.
Good losses: at Georgetown by 2, UConn by 2
Bad losses: At Cincy by 8
*We have almost identical records, but they have a better RPI and a much better SOS. Some big wins by greater than 2-3 pts, close losses against great teams, and only one real bad loss. Even if we beat them, they have the better resume, and would have a case for inclusion.
-Orgeon: 18-12 (9-9)/RPI 53/SOS 26
Big wins: at K-State by 3, at 'Zona by 10, Stanford by 5, Arizona St by 6, Arizona by 9.
Good losses: UCLA by 5, at USC by 6
Bad losses: at Stanford by 29
*They did get smoked by Stanford, but they're a great team and it was an away game. They had a few big wins, and stayed close in losses against good teams. They have a better RPI and SOS than us.
-Arizona: 18-13 (8-10)/RPI 29/SOS 1
Big wins: Texas A&M by 11, Washington St by 12, at USC by 11, at Washington St by 10
Good Losses: at Kansas by 4, at Arizona St by 5, at Stanford by 4, Arizona State by 5, Stanford by 1, UCLA by 2.
Bad Losses: N/A.
*Not a spectacular record and a poor conference record, but no bad losses, and a slew of big wins and good close losses. Combine that with the #1 SOS and they should be in over us.
-Texas A&M:21-9 (8-8)/RPI 48/SOS 64
Big wins: at Ohio State by 23, Texas by 17, Texas Tech by 44
Good Losses: N/A
Bad losses: at Texas Tech by 15, at K-State by 21, at Texas by 27, at Oklahoma by 27, at Kansas by 17.
*This team was terribly inconsistent at the end of the year. They had some big wins. They did not lose to any bad teams, but got tortured by good ones (all away games). They still get in before us by virtue of a better record/RPI, big wins against higher ranked top 25 teams, and no losses to bad teams. Nonetheless, they're very much a bubble team.
-Dayton: 20-9 (8-8)/RPI 33/SOS 36
Big wins: at Louisville by 5, Pitt by 25, Rhode Island by 9, St. Joes by 12.
Good losses: Xavier by 6
Bad losses: at Xavier by 26, at Richmond by 17, at GW by 3, at La Salle by 3
*They have a better record, RPI, and SOS than us. They have several big wins. Their one very bad loss was an away game against a ranked team. Richmond was not a bad team, but the margin of loss is a negative. They lost to 2 bad teams, but by a combined 6 pts. Their resume is better than ours.
-Ohio State: 19-12 (10-8)/RPI 50/ SOS 18
Big wins: Syracuse by 14, Florida by 13, Purdue by 3, Michigan State by 9.
Good losses: At Michigan State by 6,at Tennessee by 5, Indiana by 6, lost Wisconsin by 5, lost Indiana by 3.
Bad losses: #15 Texas AM by 23, #16Butler by 19, at Iowa by 5,lost Michigan by 10.
* This is a hard team to pick. They showed they couldn't hang with the big guys for most of the season, and their record's not outstanding. They got smoked by 2 ranked teams, and lost 2 to poor teams by greater than 5 pts. However, they ended the season by beating two ranked teams, and have both a better RPI and SOS than us.
-St.Mary's: 24-6 (12-3)/RPI 38/SOS 143
Big wins: Drake by 6, Oregon by 12,Gonzaga by 4, San Diego by 7
Good losses: N/A
Bad losses: at Texas by 19
*Despite their conference tourney loss, they have big wins over Drake, Oregon, Gonzaga, and San Diego with no bad losses. This in the current system earns them a bid over us.
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